Trying to fend off a stupid argument against Zack Greinke winning the Cy Young

Trying to fend off a stupid argument against Zack Greinke winning the Cy Young

Can't do last night's Royals justice here. The Royals' win expectancy as charted by FanGraphs gave the Royals less than a 5 percent chance of winning into the fifth inning.

My only thought, before we get on with it here: can you imagine what this town would be like if the Royals were contending and won a game like that?

Anyway, today is Greinke Day, and this blog's stance on Greinke is fairly clear. He is the best pitcher in baseball, the 2009 AL Cy Young winner if the voters get it right.

This issue is not above debate, of course, and we here at Ball Star always like debate. Previous arguments we've heard against Greinke are that his candidacy is built too heavily on his fast start*, and that he doesn't have enough wins**.

* Zack's ERA before the break was 2.12, best in the league. His ERA after the break is 2.17, best in the league.

** Every day, more and more people understand that wins for a pitcher are perhaps the most misleading stat out there. Joe Saunders has a 4.75 ERA -- worse than league average -- but he's 13-7 because he gets 9.62 runs of support -- second in the AL among pitchers with 120 or more innings.

Greinke is getting 4.71 runs of support, which is not only last among 48 pitchers with 120 innings, but 1/3 of a run less than Cliff Lee, who ranks 47th, and more than 3/4 of a run less than Dallas Braden, who ranks 46th.

The run support of the other pitchers talked about as Cy Young contenders: Halladay (5.99), Felix Hernandez (5.62), Justin Verlander (6.09), CC Sabathia (7.97). Not even close.

In the coming weeks, we will write more about Zack's 2.14 ERA being 1/3 of a run better than anybody else's in the league, and the lowest in the American League since Pedro Martinez in 2000.

We will write more and more about how Greinke is not just the best pitcher in the American League this year, but the best pitcher the league has seen in quite some time, since Predro was at the height of his powers.

His Cy Young argument is an easy case to make, a difficult one to poke holes in, but there's one strange argument that's come up recently against Zack that says because he hasn't faced the Red Sox or Yankees* we don't really know how good he is.

* It's been pointed out before, here and in other places, that Zack also doesn't get to pitch against the Royals. The other Cy candidates have taken advantage:

CC Sabathia and Roy Halladay are each 1-0 with a 0.00 ERA against the Royals. Felix Hernandez is 1-0 with a 3.86 ERA, and Justin Verlander is 2-1 with a 1.89 ERA and 27 strikeouts in 19 innings.

He pitches against the Red Sox tonight, so we'll have that soon enough, but this is such a silly argument I wanted to get it out there. This argument drives me crazy for a number of reasons, mostly having to do with the Sox-Yanks bubble that so many seem to live in, where if it happens outside New England, it must be treated with suspicion.

This is also important to dispel the notion that Zack is some sort of mental midget who can't handle pressure. It feels like this thought lingers because of the mental/social issues he's overcome, even as every bit of evidence screams against it. At its best, that thought is just factually wrong. At its worst, it's insulting.

Greinke pitched his best early this season, when the Royals were in first place, he was dominant in the All-Star game, and then there are the following numbers that really blew me away.

We can do this any number of ways, even beyond pointing out that Greinke faced the Yankees three times last year, giving up four earned runs in 19 2/3 innings, a 1.83 ERA.

The sentiment behind the argument seems to be that Zack hasn't faced the best competition, here are a few different ways of measuring Zack against the best competition he's faced:

Against teams that are above .500, he has 21 walks and 96 strikeouts in 89 innings with a 1.31 ERA. That, you might notice, is pretty good.

Against teams in the top five in the AL in scoring, he has eight walks and 44 strikeouts in 61 1/3 innings with a 2.35 ERA. That, you might notice, would lead the AL.

Guys who made this year's All-Star team* are 23-for-119 (.193) with 47 strikeouts against Zack. Also pretty good.

* I did my best to include everyone, but I probably missed a guy or two. You get the idea, though.

Sabathia is a fine pitcher and all, but as long as we're talking about who everybody's faced, he's 4-1 against the Orioles, and thrown more innings against them than any other team.

Submitted by Sam Mellinger on September 22, 2009 - 8:43am.
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Submitted by TH on September 22, 2009 - 2:44pm.

This is the crap we keep doing that drives me crazy. Don't bring in crap to replace crap. I'm quoting a book, but the key to organizational success is getting the right people on the bus. I don't know much about Bradley, but I would say he is absolutely not the right person to put on the bus.

In fact, I'd be more tempted to simply dump Guillen and write it off as a mistake--ship him out. Especially, if they decide to keep Jacobs (which I also think is a mistake), then you've already got your poor hitting DH lined up because Guillen should not play the field again. Lousy OBP DH--mark that box checked.

THel

Submitted by brenth on September 22, 2009 - 10:25am.

Trade Jose Guillen for Milton Bradley.

Pros for the Royals. Bradley is a better player, offensively, defensively, running the bases. His salary next year is pretty much the equivalent of Guillen's.

Pros for the Cubs. Bradley is not coming back to Wrigley. They are on the hook for 2 more years at approx. $10 million/year. They get a RF in return for approx the same amount of money and only would be on the hook for him for one year, rather than two. The Royals would probably be willing to pay at least for some of Bradley's salary the 2nd year (and the first year the salaries are a wash), whereas most teams are going to force the Cubs to pay almost all the $20 million owed to Bradley before they would agree to trade for him.

Cons for the Royals: Well, Bradley is a hothead, a possible clubhouse cancer and he apparently once tried to injure the Royal's TV announcer. He often gets hurt (but so does Guillen), pouts a lot when things don't go his way and clearly cannot handle criticism.

Cons for the Cubs: Guillen has less range than the Harry Carey statue outside Wrigley and there is no DH in the NL. He is a RH hitter and the Cubs specifically picked up Bradley because they wanted a LH bat to go with Ramirez, Lee, Soto and Soriano.

My thought is that a 95 loss team should be willing to take a chance once in a while and Bradley would be a definite upgrade over Guillen (OPS+ the last 3 years for Bradley is 153, 163, and 100, whereas Guillen's is 116, 96 and 81)

Submitted by TH on September 22, 2009 - 2:48pm.

If DM makes this move, I'll be done. I can't believe anyone even considers this move a positive. Read JoPo's piece on overvalued players and I'm thinking this fits into several of the categories of why GM's (especially ours) make ridiculously stupid moves and then the vicious circle starts.

THel

Submitted by curtisruder on September 22, 2009 - 1:14pm.

Even if the Cubs were willing to pay the entire difference in the contracts, which is $8 million, I think this is a terrible deal, as it puts us on the hook for another year. The sooner the Guillen contract is entirely in the rear view mirror, the better.

It is not like the Royals have the veteran leadership or the kind of manager who could keep a head case like this in line. If Pinella can't do it, if Scoscia couldn't do it, why on earth would we think Hillman could keep this guy in line.

I would be all in favor of sending Guillen packing and eating the contract. That is a better option in my mind than picking up Bradley.

Submitted by dsmith84 on September 22, 2009 - 12:21pm.

1. the cubs wouldn't want us to throw in a prospect, because at this point I think we'd be better off just cutting Guillen and eating the salary than trading away any form of minor league talent, at this point, next year isn't "the year" either, so getting rid of any talent that could help in 2 years or more makes this not "a good deal"

2. Bradley would re-structure, maybe we could give him a raise to 12 million next year, but have the extra two million next year be a buyout of that second year. After next season, guys like Lubanski, Maier, Anderson, Parraz, Lough, etc might have developed enough to share the outfield with DeJesus, and we won't need a guy like Bradley with diminishing outfield skills to eat up AB's at a DH position that likely will be Billy Butler's (I'm assuming a shuffle of Teahen/Gordon/Callaspo where one of them is dealt for something useful, one of them ends up at 3rd, and one of them ends up at 1st).

Submitted by Isaac on September 22, 2009 - 10:14am.

He has pitched 32 innings against the Angels and Texas and has allowed 2ER for an ERA of 0.56. If you add division leading Detroit into this he has allowed 6ER in 68IP for a 0.79ERA. In the 9 games against these three teams he has 4CG. I rest my case.

Submitted by eakers on September 22, 2009 - 10:04am.

I am interested in seeing the comparisons of starting pitchers that have the Cy Young that had the lowest ERA but not not highest win total, and vice versa, and maybe other factors that may show why one was chosen over the other.

Example: 1996, John Smoltz won with 24-8, 2.94 ERA, 276 SO, but Kevin Brown finished second with 17-11, 1.89 ERA, 159 SO. Maybe it was the Ks the did him in (or maybe the 16 batters he hit - did they have a vote?)

Maybe a better example, Bob Welch in 1990:
238.0 IP, 27-6, 2.95 ERA, 127 SO, 77 BB.
Roger Clemens:
228.1 IP, 21-6, 1.93 ERA, 209 SO, 54 BB.

In both cases the 2nd place was a full run better. Are there many cases that go the opposite direction, ERA was better but win total was drastically worse than 2nd place?

Submitted by curtisruder on September 22, 2009 - 9:42am.

I loved reading on ESPN.com that the AL Cy Young Award was a race between Zack and Felix. Because Felix has probably had the second best year among American League pitchers, I agree on the merits.

But I especially like the discussion because every good reason to reward Felix is an even better reason to give the first place vote to Zack. Felix isn't piling up a huge amount of wins either. And there is clear difference in ERA, K's, WHIP, complete games, ....

The only difference I can see that benefits Felix is that Seattle has been better than expected and stayed on the fringe of a pennant chase much of the year, while the Royals have been craptastic.

Submitted by cpass on September 22, 2009 - 9:49am.

He also has had the benefit of a great defense behind him, something that Zack has lacked.

Submitted by chuck on September 22, 2009 - 9:39am.

Did I really hear an advertisement for "bring your dog to the K day" on Sunday, the 27th? As in the last home game? And Zack's next scheduled start after tonight? If so, you have to give him an extra day's rest and let him go against the Yankees...

Submitted by jtuck123 on September 22, 2009 - 9:34am.

I read an article about Tony G. in the paper...funny thing about it was the author's name...Could've swore it said "Sam Mellinger"...You really need to keep Kent Babb, Adam Teicher and Randy Covitz away from your computer when you're logged on it... :)
JT

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