Lots of decisions to make this offseason, one of them need NOT be whether to move Soria to the rotation

OK, so the scout we had quoted yesterday wondering out loud about trading Zack Greinke and Joakim Soria turned into, among other things, a discussion about whether Soria should be turned into a starter.

Everyone has their own opinions on this, but let me tell you why mine has evolved from a hard yes, to a yeah-give-him-some-starts-in-August-or-September-because-you-can-always-move-him-back to a Miguel Olivo Hell No*.

* There is a chance, of course, that Olivo will be back. As much beef as he has with the way he was used this season and with his manager, if the Royals offer to bring him back as the starting catcher for the $2.7 million mutual option, he'll be back.

First, I understand the other arguments. I understand that 200 innings is much more valuable than 70, leverage be damned, and I also understand that having one of the best closers in baseball doesn't do much good if you can only use him four times in 25 days, like the Royals did during one stretch of August.

I also understand the nothing-to-lose approach of giving Soria a few starts in September or spring training, when there's no risk and you can always move him back to closer.

But I also understand that the Royals have had one of the worst runs* of late-inning relievers in all of baseball since Jeff Montgomery retired, and they walked butt-backwards into one of the best few closers in the world, and it would be an arrogant and inappropriate and unnecessary challenge of the fates to mess with what they've got.

* I'm not running the numbers, but I lived here, and I believe that to be true.

And I understand that none of that is why I think they should keep Soria out of the rotation.

I have two reasons. Let's start with the more tangible: Soria's makeup and stuff demand that he be the closer.

The makeup is easy enough to recognize. The guy is ice cold, no matter the situation, and even though the Royals haven't played a meaningful game in Soria's time here, it's easy to imagine him with the ball in a Game 7, facing Morneau or Teixeira or someone like that and going strike one, at the knees, just like always.

The stuff part is probably worth more discussion. Yes, he has four pitches* and that would typically drive him to the rotation, but look a little closer.

* John Buck, of course, says Soria has at least a few others he hasn't used in a game, only in bullpen sessions, so who the heck knows.

He throws in the low 90s, and you'd have to expect his velocity to go down a little bit when he's throwing 110 pitches per outing instead of 12.

Because he doesn't have the one dominant pitch -- the Mariano cutter or Trevor Hoffman changeup or K-Rod celebration, for instance -- Soria is able to pretty effectively mix in all four pitches during save opportunities.

Maybe he doesn't use all four of them in any particular outing, but it's a nice safety net to have when you know if this pitch isn't working, he's got that pitch, and if that pitch isn't working, he's got the other pitch, and so on.

And then there's this: I can't find one scout who believes that Soria would be a legitimate No. 1, ace starter.

Even Louie Medina, the highly-respected scout who discovered* Soria in Mexico, says Soria would have only an outside shot at developing into a No. 2, tops.

* You gotta love Louie. I have this picture in my head of Louie showing up to work three hours late everyday, in the same clothes he wore the night before, and then playing Tetris all day, like Peter in Office Space.

When somebody tries to call him out on it, he just says, "Um, you know that All-Star closer? Yeah, I found him for you. IN THE EFFING RULE 5 DRAFT!!! Now go get me more coffee."

That's the picture in my head, anyway. But that's not Louie's style, or the culture of scouting. He works as hard as anybody, and when you ask him about finding Soria, he always says something like, "Oh, right place, right time. Any scout who saw what I saw would've made the same recommendation."

So we need to get this picture out of our heads that Soria would be anything close to as dominant as a starter as he is as a reliever. This is not a question of, Would you rather have Mariano or Johan Santana? This is more like a question of, Would you rather have Mariano or Jason Marquis?

Now, the second reason I've changed my mind is more relevant to the crowd who wants to give Soria a low-risk shot at the rotation either at the end of a season or in spring training.

And this is where I start to think back on Ambiorix Burgos and Andrew Sisco and Denny Bautista and Mike MacDougal (post-2003 version) and Jeremy Affeldt and all the other failed closers of Royals past.

Even if you don't believe in the dangers of tempting the baseball gods, it's not hard to see how moving Soria to the rotation could cause more problems than solve.

Right now, Soria is The Mexicutioner, the no-emotion, ice-cold killer who comes in and throws strikes at the knees and puts the fear of embarassment into guys who've seen professional, major league hitters fall down trying to hit that 68-mph eephus/curveball.

Put him in the rotation and watch him morph into Jeff Suppan, and some of that shine is off your new toy. Maybe Soria's mindset changes once he's given up seven runs in four innings. Maybe an opposing hitter's fear subsides after he's doubled off the wall.

And once that happens, if you decide to move him back to being the closer, there's no guarantee you'll have what you had.

Being a dominant closer is a delicate enough proposition. Lots of guys (Bobby Thigpen?) have been lights out for a year or two, but then quickly lost it (this is actually a supporting reason to trade Soria while his value is high).

Nobody roots for the poor guy who doubles down his lottery winnings on a game of blackjack.

There's no need to increase that risk more than you have to by turning him back into a starter. You have one of the best closers in all of baseball. You should do everything you can to keep it that way.

Submitted by Sam Mellinger on September 26, 2008 - 8:31am.
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Submitted by AxDxMx on September 29, 2008 - 9:53am.

If Pena can get 3 outs pitching in a ballgame I would think almost anyone could do it. On Joe's website someone suggested we make Pena the closer and start Soria. :)

Submitted by MtRoyals on September 28, 2008 - 8:28pm.

Pardon me, please, but did Sam just call Jason Marquis a #2?

Submitted by Sam Mellinger on September 29, 2008 - 10:22am.

....but I can see how I wrote that vague enough to think that. The point I was trying to make was that scouts are saying Soria would be at the very, very best a #2 starter, but more likely a 3 or even 4 (average). I was trying to use Marquis as an example of an average pitcher.

Submitted by nobadgerbear54 on September 28, 2008 - 7:47pm.

Great closers do not grow on trees. Keep Soria right where he is. As far as the starters go, the way it looks, the lightbulb went on big time for Davies. So, 1, 2, and 3 are set. Can Bannister figure out why his stuff turned into high 80s BP? Can Hochevar be like Davies and he figure it out also? The setup seems OK...it's really too bad that we traded Horatio to the WSX for a guy that won't advance farther than AA. Mahay was just worn out, Bale looks like a better guy out of the pen, and Gobble (a class guy and a gentleman but couldn't get my 85 year old mother out) our left handed options. RR also got used up, but Tejeda looks solid. So, is there another couple of kids that can play themselves into the pen in the spring?

Submitted by charlie on September 29, 2008 - 10:15am.

Here's my plan to improve Royals' pitching and hitting with one signing. Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez is a 37 year old catcher who might come to KC for a 2 year contract with an option. His hitting will make Gordon, Guillen, Shealy, Butler and De Jesus face more fastballs and he mans his position at an all-star level. Buck would benefit from him while still catching at least 40 games.

As an additional signing, I'd look at someone like Ben Sheets and a Kerry Wood to really make the pitching staff really competitive.

Submitted by AxDxMx on September 28, 2008 - 10:07pm.

Gobble's splits are good against lefties and horrendous against righties. He should be our situational lefty out of the pen that faces at most 1 or 2 batters. He would be phenomenal at that.

Submitted by AxDxMx on September 28, 2008 - 10:15am.

Here's the deal. Take the Royals 12 game losing streak, make it a .500 6-6. Take August, the lowest low stretch for a while with the Royals, and make it 13-14 instead of 7-20.

The Royals would be 87-74 tied with Minnesota for 1st place.

If they can keep away from the really bad stretches next year, they will compete sooner than we all thought.

Submitted by dude on September 28, 2008 - 8:27am.

They'd be foolish to trade Greinke or Soria. Keep building around them and maybe you've got a good team in a few years. That's my take.
dude

Submitted by charlie on September 27, 2008 - 12:43pm.

Starters and closers are two different kinds of animals. Where a closer comes in with the game on the line, a good starter may be ok giving up a couple of runs early if he feels his stuff is working. You don't see guys like Randy Johnson get flustered because they gave up a run. I'd leave Soria in the Bullpen as we have a wealth of very young arms. The health issue is really a youth issue. We may have overused soem of these young pitchers. If you look through the Royals roster and farm system you'll see a lot of pitching. Hitting may be a different thing. Right now, I'd look at a roatation of Greinke, Meche, Bannister and Davies and still consider we have a decent bullpen.

While Olivo would be a welcome returning act, I'd like to see us make a run at a yadier Molina/Pudge Rodriguez caliber catcher. Even old Pudge would bolster our hitting as well as the rest of the catching duties.

Right now, I see

c- Buck
1b- Sheally/Killa
2b- Grud (Callaspo may move in during 09, but if G continues hitting 300 and fielding as he has the last couple of years, I see plenty of pine in Callaspo's future.
ss- Aviles
3b- Gordon
LF- Teahen/De Jesus
CF- De Jesus/Gaithwright
RF- Guillen/Teahen
DH- Butler/Killa/Sheally

Not a fearsome lineup, but one that is likely to work as a unit.

Submitted by AxDxMx on September 27, 2008 - 3:51pm.

I love Banny, but he was pretty bad this year. Hochevar was too.

Submitted by Otis26 on September 27, 2008 - 11:50am.

all these comments.

I won't dare to add anything more to an already robust discussion.

I just wanted to point out how cool it is to have lively conversation about the Royals with two games to go. Three weeks ago we weren't getting the same enthusiasm.

Amazing what a good month of baseball will do.

Submitted by kabrink on September 27, 2008 - 9:16am.

Well, DeJesus seems kind of injury prone. Perhaps we should just play him in the ninth inning only from now on?

Submitted by bobtelos on September 27, 2008 - 12:09pm.

tremendous

Submitted by Racewriter on September 27, 2008 - 8:20am.

Sisco, Burgos, McDougal, Awfulfeldt, and the rest pretty much sucked no matter what inning it was. So the fact that they sucked in the 9th is pretty much irrelevant. It's not that the Royals have lacked for "closers," they've lacked for "pitchers who can get guys out." We are no longer in that situation. Remember Vulcan Joe Nelson, he of te 5+ ERA? He went 11 for 14 in save opportunities and then disappeared. The closer is the most wildly overrated position in baseball. Big flippin' wow - Mariano Rivera comes in, gets the 6-7-8 hitters out with a 3-run lead, and marks up another save (and that happens more often than not). Remember Eckersley's Cy Young year? Bill James showed that Eck pitched exactly THREE - count 'em, THREE - high leverage innings that year. If Soria has pitched 10 high leverage innings this year, I'd be shocked.

Submitted by KCSoxFan on September 27, 2008 - 6:57am.

Since this is a discussion of the Royals starting rotation next year, it warrants mentioning that Kyle Davies could be turning into a legitimate #3 or #4 starter right before our eyes.

I had my doubts, and still have some, but Davies' progress this year has been very encouraging. An ERA+ of 112 from a guy whose previous career best was 86 as a rookie smells a bit like a breakthrough, especially considering that he was just 24-years old until a couple of weeks ago. Consider as well that he's posted these solid numbers against extremely tough competition. Over half (11 of 21) of Davies' starts have come against teams with top-5 offenses (4 vs Chicago, 3 vs Minnesota, 3 vs Detroit, 1 vs Texas), plus he started twice against the Cardinals, a top-5 NL offense. He also had one start each against Cleveland and Baltimore, both of which are in the top half of the league in scoring. Add it all up, and Davies has had to face an upper-tier offense in over 70% of his starts. Posting the numbers he has against that level of competition makes me think his performance this year is the real deal.

Some of his comps bear that out. Through age 22, Jeff Suppan was on his list of comps, and for all his faults, Suppan has been a solid major league starter for a decade now. His "breakthrough" season...at age 24. Edwin Jackson muddled along in the same fashion as Davies through age 23, and suddenly this year he's a rotation staple with 13 wins and a league-average ERA for a division winner...at age 24.

Now, most of Davies' comps turned into nothing. There are a lot of Ruben Quevedos and Ken Cloudes and Bob Wolcotts and (gulp) Chris Georges on Davies' list of comparables. The difference, though, is that none of those guys ever had a season like this one for Davies, where they looked to have turned the corner.

I still have some doubts, but I'm leaning toward the belief that Davies can give the Royals solid league-average or better results from the #3 or #4 spot in the rotation for quite some time.

Submitted by Karte on September 26, 2008 - 5:41pm.

I think your comments are right on, Sam. I can add another reason to NOT move Soria to starter.

Right now, the closer is a position of strength for us. If KC gets to the 9th with a lead, the ballgame is pretty much over.

If we move Soria to starter, we make the rotation stronger, but the closer position is now a position of question.

The more questions a club has, the more games they lose. Conversely, the more strengths a club has, the more games they win.

I think we need to make more strength positions, but do it without weakening the club in spots where they are already strong.

So, don't trade Soria, and don't move him to starter. Spend some FA bucks on a proven starter instead.

Submitted by AxDxMx on September 26, 2008 - 3:55pm.

Sam,

Obviously we have differing opinions on Soria, but echoing comments further down the list, your column on Aviles's defensive stats was great. My eyes have told me all year that he's better than Tony Pena Jr. at SS, and now we have some concrete proof. He's actually looked worse at 2B to me. I really hope they leave him. He is the Royals POY and hopefully will get some love for ROY.

Submitted by BigGuyDon on September 26, 2008 - 2:24pm.

Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Decisions made out of FUD are usually bad ones (see Iraq War and Wall Street Bailout). Anytime someone is trying to sell you fear of the unknown as a reason to ignore what the numbers, facts and your senses tell you, sirens should go off.

Sam, your argument basically is all FUD. "What if we can't find a new closer?". "What if he's not as good a starter?". "What if when we put him in it causes the Baseball Gods to strike Dayton Moore with a lightning bolt?".

Facts: Soria's makeup is perfect for ANY pitcher, not just a closer. His stuff gives him the ability to get through the lineup 3 times because of several pitches; they are wasted on one inning closes. Closers are overrated figments of old-school baseball people's imaginations. And Dayton Moore has repeatedly found valuable bullpen peices by turning over rocks (Dotel, Mahay, Ramirez (twice)) and there are plenty of good pitchers in our system that CAN'T become #2 starters (Davies, Nunez, Duckworth, Rosa) that ARE capable of filling bullpen roles.

If Soria is ONLY equivalent to Gil Meche (ie. JUST a #2) then the Royals would have the best pitching staff in the division (maybe the AL), especially if Hochevar becomes even a solid #4 and Bannister gets back to being Banny and stops trying to strike everyone out. That potential reward is well worth the risk posed by "diminishing Soria's closer mystique" by moving him to the rotation.

Frankly, I think they should have given him some 3-4 inning starts in September to start stretching him out and auditioned RamRam and Nunez for closing.

Submitted by CMKeller on September 26, 2008 - 1:33pm.

Ambiorix Burgos.

I'll even throw in Jason Grimsley for free.

Chaim Mattis Keller
New York City's # 1 Royals Fan!

Submitted by kabrink on September 26, 2008 - 1:13pm.

I love Soria. But, again, 0.77 era earned mostly every 3 or 4 (HOME ONLY - so call it every 6 or 8 games) games and mostly in situations without runners on base or any threat whatsoever, in the end simply isn't as valuable as you think.

Put Soria in the rotation. All the arguments against just don't add up in my mind.

It's weird. It seems like everyone loves DM and trusts that we've turned over a new leaf (even at owner level - somewhat, maybe, hopefully) but won't trust him to continue to deliver relief pitching the way he has. All the old closers listed are from the old regimes.

And, no, I really don't buy the argument that if you try him at starter and he doesn't work out that he'll suddenly be incapable of going back to close. Grow up people.

Soria deserves a full season at starter before we call him a "failure" too, in my mind. Hell, look at Bannister. Also, while he's not a pitcher look at Teahen - how many years have we given him?

Submitted by JMGesling on September 26, 2008 - 2:02pm.

...that Hillman only used him in save situations. For example: He could have been used in the 7th or 8th to halt a comeback or something like that. Plus, we all agree this year's team was not good. Better teams have more uses for closers...so his work load would increase as well.

Didn't Soria have surgery on his shoulder? Is anyone interested in keeping the arm healthy given it's past?

Submitted by MtRoyals on September 28, 2008 - 9:18pm.

Didn't our set-up man Gil Meche have some surgery done a time or two? Better save his arm!

Submitted by JMGesling on September 26, 2008 - 2:02pm.

...that Hillman only used him in save situations. For example: He could have been used in the 7th or 8th to halt a comeback or something like that. Plus, we all agree this year's team was not good. Better teams have more uses for closers...so his work load would increase as well.

Didn't Soria have surgery on his shoulder? Is anyone interested in keeping the arm healthy given it's past?

Submitted by JMGesling on September 26, 2008 - 2:03pm.

sorry for double post...comp messed up.

Submitted by John G on September 26, 2008 - 1:11pm.

The Royals would be crazy to move Soria to a starters position. They are trying to find the pieces to build a winner. They have a main piece to the puzzle with Soria. You have to have somebody close out games in order to make to October and win once there. It's not like he is in 30's and by the time the team gets to that point they would have to look at his replacement. Keep him where he is.

Submitted by tanana on September 26, 2008 - 12:29pm.

how come you never hear about a top of the rotation (legit 1 or 2) moving to the bullpen...I mean unless a SP has an injury history (Kerry Wood) you really never hear about a starting pitcher that has had success at the big league level moving to the pen...

ok there was smoltz but you get my point...besides didn't smoltz have a few injury issues...

my point is about to be contradicted because i believe soria should remain as the closer...the electricity that he brings to the team as he enters the game is the best think that happened at the K this season...he was 20 of 20 with a .77 e.r.a at home...yes, a .77 e.r.a....leave him in the pen

Submitted by bobtelos on September 26, 2008 - 12:50pm.

why not make Frankenstein's Monster the closer?

Screw stats, more electricity = winning baseball

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Submitted by toddjreynolds on September 26, 2008 - 11:38am.

1) So glad I'm not the only one thinking Soria should remain the closer.

2) Equally glad that the Royals organization is not democratically granting a vote to everyone with an opinion in the matter.

3) If you have that much to say, you can sign up for a free blog of your own here. Honestly...

Great post, Sam.

Submitted by JMGesling on September 26, 2008 - 12:57pm.

You aren't the only one. It's nice to know that you hand the ball over to a guy who can get the job done in a tight situation. Does wonders for the psyche.

Submitted by MtRoyals on September 28, 2008 - 9:20pm.

It would be nice if he wasn't wasted as a closer, actually. Do you think it's coincidence that most of the all-time saves leaders were came about after the Eckersley Closer was created? And that was for a man with his arm about to fall off. Why use your best pitcher with such restrictions. Go back to the Gossage closer and then this discussion is a lot more valid.

Submitted by bfos7215 on September 26, 2008 - 11:10am.

The time to try Soria in the rotation was this fall. We missed the opportunity. Even though I think it was a mistake, it's time to move on from this argument and leave Soria alone.

Submitted by baggio on September 26, 2008 - 11:09am.

Why is it that we have to put out of our minds that Soria can be a top-of-the-rotation starter? Why is it that he would suddenly morph into Jeff Suppan? Were tea leaves involved in these conclusions?

Soria's overwhelming stuff won't evaporate upon becoming a starter. The question is whether his arm would hold up. If yes, then he should start. If no, then he stays in the pen.

Replacing him as closer would be difficult and quite possibly painful. But passing the chance to develop a high quality starter is something no small market team can ever afford to do.

The great oracle of baseball, Jeff Flanagan, has argued that Soria should not be moved (he also demanded emphatically that Zack should stay in middle relief this year), recalling the horrors of closers past such as MacDougal, Bottalico, Burgos, et al. But I also remember the horrors of starters like Witasick, Reichert, Stein, Meadows, Durbin, Suzuki, May, Sedlacek, Runelvys, Wood, Elarton, Odalis... please stop me before my head explodes.

Point is, it's always more difficult AND more important to fill the rotation than the bullpen.

p.s. Thanks for finally reporting on the defensive numbers for Aviles, I've been arguing for those a long, lonely time.

Submitted by bobtelos on September 26, 2008 - 11:21am.

No more powerful argument can be made that Soria should be moved to the rotation ASAP.

Cf. his awesome "Guillen is worth the money" column.

Submitted by dedo on September 26, 2008 - 10:34am.

By all means,shop both Greinke and Soria but only Greinke would have true off-season trade value.

Whether Greinke is traded or not, Soria should definitely prepare in the off-season to enter the rotation. In fact, if Dayton wanted to load up with prospects by trading these guys, then Soria needs to be a starter to have much value.

The reason for this is what many are commenting about; no self-respecting GM will trade prospects for a closer, especially a 'proven' 24 year old.

The fact is that starting pitching is the single biggest key to a contending team.

"Scouts say that Soria will be lucky to be a number 2."(Sorry for the paraphrased quote) How many number 1s are in the league? Greinke and Meche are in the top 8 to 12 in the AL in many key statistical categories.(Quality Starts, WHIP, ERA, SOs) Does anyone think that in the 'punch and Judy' NL, the top ten pitchers are as strong as the AL? No way.

Soria obviously has skills. Utilize his talent in the most helpful way to his team, as a starter. I believe it would be a safe bet that he would be no worse than #3 in the rotation next year which would drop off either Banny or Davies.(They are basically the same pitcher anyway) If he continues to surprise, he might resemble Meche or Greinke who are arguably among the top 20 starters in MLB.

Hochevar very likely could continue to struggle next year, but because of his upside he needs to be with the big league squad unless he begins to lose his confidence.

Move Soria to the rotation. Increase his value to the Royals and to every other team that might want him.

Submitted by AxDxMx on September 26, 2008 - 10:22am.

1. The Royals have had the worst closers since Montgomery.

No argument here, but I think that is a poor argument for keeping Soria where he is. For the most part, those so-called "closers" were all below league average pitchers and really were bound to blow quite a few saves. The Royals pitching staff has been AAAA for quite a while.

2. Soria has ice water in his veins.

Sure, I'll go with that. You need it to START Game 7 in a World Series as well.

3. Soria's velocity will go down as a starter.

Is Soria a max effort guy? He sure doesn't look like it to me. His fastball isn't really that fast (what's MLB average fastball? 91-92?), it's just placed well, has movement, and his delivery gets the ball on the hitters quick thus creating the illusion of more speed than it has. Plus you can't help but worry about that ankle breaking curve while you are looking fastball.

4. His stuff.

Soria does not really mix in 4 pitches during his save opportunities. I see pretty much fastball (strike 1), fastball (strike 2), curveball (batter screws himself into ground, strike 3). Using Pitch F/X data it looks like he also has a changeup. Looking at the charts included in the link, it looks like he has 2 versions of the curveball, as one moves more than the other, but the less break pitch is probably his slow slider.

http://baseball.bornbybits.com/plots/Joakim_Soria.html

He throws the curve 17% of the time (and more to righties than lefties), and he throws the change 9% of the time (and only once to righties). He lives on the fastball as a closer. 3 of 4 pitches are fastballs. As a starter, he would throw at least 10% less fastballs, and mix in another pitch.

Want this data for any pitcher, go to http://baseball.bornbybits.com/plots/players.html

5. Louie Medina says he's no #1 starter.

Well a #2 would still be pretty good. And since when do we trust what scouts have to say? They are the ones who left him unprotected and had him pitching in the Mexican League in the first place. And if you really think he would be as bad as Jason Marquis (ERA+ of 102) as a starter, well then god help him, because he won't survive as a dominant closer either.

As for the hypothetical giving up 7 runs in 4 innings, well what happens when he gives up a 3 run bomb for a loss and blown save? If he really does have ice water in his veins it will wash away. The argument here seems to be not to overexpose him. It will eventually happen anyway, especially within the Central.

I really do understand the opposition to this, but a league average pitcher can survive as a closer. Just look at Brian Wilson for the SF Giants. His ERA+ is 99, and he's blown 5 saves this year, while getting 40. Soria's ERA+ is 277. The main difference is Wilson gave up 18 more hits and 11 more walks in 6 less IP. Soria hit 6 batters to his 3. You should be able to make any decent reliever into an above average closer, if they can't it's all in their head. There's no difference with pitching the setup spot or the closing spot, and the Royals excelled in those this year. Joe Nathan used to setup, and now he's a brilliant closer.

So finally, is a closer worth his weight in gold? I would argue that Soria has been for the Royals because it has been so long since any lead was safe. But now that our fragile psyches our starting to heal from the pain of those frustating years, we have become addicted to Soria like a drug for fear we will go back to what we had before. You guys all want innovation in baseball, but here you want to be sticks in the mud and not try something new. I'm sorry, but I think it is short sighted. Especially when I believe we have the above average relievers in Nunez, Ramirez, and Mahay to warrant the try.

Submitted by Sam Mellinger on September 26, 2008 - 11:06am.

....failed or average starters have made very good closers. Just because Soria's terrific as a closer doesn't mean he'd be even above average as a starter. Maybe he would, but it's far from a guarantee.

Submitted by bobtelos on September 26, 2008 - 11:18am.

this is must better as an argument that it is easier to find a closer (and thus, replace Soria) from a failed starter than it is an argument against Soria being tried in the rotation in 2009 -- a non-contending year. Well-played, and thank you.

Submitted by AxDxMx on September 26, 2008 - 3:49pm.

But why not give him a shot at starting? If he can be replaced so easily, there really is no reason not to try. I will always like him, but if he never starts I'll always wonder what could have been.

Submitted by bobtelos on September 26, 2008 - 9:53pm.

I was agreeing with you, and pointing out that Sam was making an argument that is better support for our side, rather than his.

Submitted by doctor_323 on September 26, 2008 - 9:59am.

I can understand how a good argument can be made for Soria in the rotation, but I have to agree in giving it the Miguel Olivo response. For once something has gone right with the Royals, and one of the best closers in baseball dropped out of the sky and landed at The K. Part of what makes Soria so effective is the way he goes right after the hitters, kinda reminds me of Eckersly in the late 80s/early 90s. This approach might or might not work for 7 innings a game. As Sam said, maybe he becomes Jason Marquis or Jeff Suppan.

People automatically assume that Nunez or Ramirez could close. Maybe they could, but a bullpen is always best when built from the back, and when you have a dominating closer it is a lot easier for the 7th and 8th inning guys to fall into place. Look no farther than 250 miles to the east where Jason Isringhausen had a great 2007, and the entire bullpen was great. This year he blows up, guys who were great middle relievers when they had an effective closer behind them suddenly can't hold leads either. Ramirez is still a bit unproven. He had a good year for the Rockies in 2006, but bombed in 2007, so who knows what he will be next year, and Nunez seems prone to ending up on the DL.

I understand both ways of thinking, but it aien't broke, so leave it be. Let's concentrate on how to get LESS playing time for John Buck, Ross Gload, and Joey Gathright in 2009.

Submitted by AxDxMx on September 26, 2008 - 10:31am.

Eckersley started 361 times in his career and ENDED his career by getting 390 saves in 12 years. When Eck went downhill as a starter, he still was an effective and dominant closer. This is just another argument that Soria is currently being wasted in his current role.

Submitted by bobtelos on September 26, 2008 - 10:06am.

Maybe the Royals should sign Goose Gossage as insurance.

Submitted by bobtelos on September 26, 2008 - 9:53am.

Sorry.

Outside of signing a free agent corner outfielder who can hit (the Royals have exactly 0 at this point) and a breakout from Gordon or Butler or Kila, Soria becoming "only" a number 2 starter would be the biggest way the Royals could upgrade their team. And next year would be the time to do it. We know the Royals aren't going to contend next year. So start him out in the 'pen, then move him to the rotation so that his innings don't go to far up, and he can be close-or-near full-time for 2010 if it works out, and moved back if it doesn't. (And before anyone freaks out and responds with another piece of non-evidence, Joba Chamberlain did not get hurt because he was starting, and the Yankees are stupid if they don't move him back to the rotation in 2009).

"Just" a no. 2? Think of replacing all of Brian Bannister's innings with Gil Meche this year. That's what the difference would be.

Worried about the bullpen? I think Dayton Moore has shown the ability to acquire chepa and effective bullpen talent. Do you realize that Ramon Ramirez has a higher FIP and xFIP than Soria this year? Stat Corner's Pitching Runs Above Average (PRAA) has Ramirez at 5 runs better than Soria. I'm not saying Ramirez is better -- Soria has a better track record, has more pitches, and is healthier, but Ramirez has been better this year, and looks to be a very good reliever going forward. Nunez has also been excellent. So there are guys there now who can take over roles (if Joe Borowski can lead the league in saves, I'm pretty sure that's all the mythbusting of the "closer" we need), and RamRod, HoRam, and the like show that Dayton can acquire more for middle relief and little or no cost. That's why Joey Gathright is around -- hey, maybe the Royals can get J. P. Howell for him!

Heck, remember Soria himself was a for-nothing acquisition of Dayton Moore's! He only went to the bullpen because the Royals had to keep him in the majors to keep him on the team. He'd been a starter in Mexico, before that.

VORP has Soria third on the team behind Meche and Greinke. His rate stats are higher, of course, so why is he third? Because his skills aren't being properly exploited by the Royals. Being a losing team means that the Royals are using their closer even less than normal --- the worse the Royals are, the less valuble Soria is.

The psychological argument is lame, but do people really find being down 7-10 runs in the 3rd inning after Banny gets rocked (and I don't mean to pick on Bannister, this is just an example) less discouraging than a late-inning comeback? Frankly, the former scenario is more likely, and has happened more often to Royals starters than Royals setup guys this year.

But let's get back to concrete wins-and-losses. I've read and discussed this with others. Even if the bullpen isn't improved after he leaves, if Soria's only slightly above average as a starter, that would be at least 2 wins (20 runs better, i.e. 20 points of VORP) for the Royals. More likely, it will get to the 4 win range. There is no way the Royals will make that improvement otherwise. Even Alex Gordon OPSing .900 with better defense won't do that. Replacing Mark Teahen or Jose Guillen (when defense is figured in, basically the same value this year) with Adam Dunn won't quite do that.

Look, if there are legitimate health reasons that the Royals think they shouldn't move Soria to the rotation, fine. I love the guy, but if that's the case, well, "Proven Closers" (TM) are probably the least exploited market inefficiency out there. They should trade him, if that's the case. They could get at least one young stud hitter and probably another good prospect, too (think Matt Kemp as the baseline), and that would improve the team a great deal. His team-friendly deal only increases his trade value to others. I think this is what the Royals should do whether Greinke resigns or not (in which case Greinke should be dealt, too, as he's better than Soria -- a legit ace right now).

The Royals might be afraid to do this because of a PR fallout. That would be stupid. The Royals are not in a position to avoid doing smart things because of stupid fans and sports media idiots like Steve Phillips will rake them over the coals about it.

Come to the dark side, Mr. Mellinger...

Submitted by lakewoodroyal on September 26, 2008 - 10:58am.

Here's an idea to ponder - Soria with a 2.00 era and his record is 5-15 because of an unfortunate bullpen.

There is no one on the current roster in the pen that I'd feel 100% confident with giving the ball to in the 9th.

Guess I'm on the bullpen side when it comes to Soria. No amount of stats or numbers would make me want to lose a proven dominant closer.

Submitted by AxDxMx on September 26, 2008 - 3:47pm.

This post has me convinced you don't even understand wins and losses. If Soria has a 2.00 era and the bullpen blows it, he sure as hell wouldn't have 15 losses unless the Royals gave him about 1 run of support per game.

Submitted by lakewoodroyal on September 26, 2008 - 9:57pm.

the royals are a powerhouse.

its not beyond reason that the royals could score ZERO runs. its happened a few times.

soria starting is not necessarily a bad thing, but i'm a believer in having a strong bullpen, a decent starting rotation and stud hitting. for awhile this summer, when the bullpen was healthy - the KC bullpen could shut down teams at will after 6-7 innings.

Submitted by AxDxMx on September 26, 2008 - 11:44pm.

But your post was pure exaggeration. If the Royals can't score the runs then imagine Bannister starting 30 games with that offense. He'd go 2-30 on the year. Not to mention that the bullpen can't blow a game that we're not already winning. Besides, no one has ever gotten 15 losses with a 2.00 ERA. That would be unfathomable. Even the worst teams in history could score 3-4 runs per game on average. You would have to have all time historical bad luck to give up less than 2 runs per start and go 5-15. That's unpossible.

Actually it's not though. Looking at Baseball Reference's Play Index, losing 15 with an ERA that low happened quite a few times before 1920, but in the modern era only once.

Gaylord Perry in 1972. 1.96 ERA 16 losses. Unfortunately, the wins end of it does not hold up. He had 24 wins.

The only man that fits your exact data went 5-16 in 1904 with a 1.72 ERA. He only started 24 games, completed 16 of them and had 2 shutouts. Ned Garvin is the unluckiest pitcher ever. http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/garvine01.shtml

Submitted by lakewoodroyal on September 27, 2008 - 2:32pm.

ok - i think you may have uncovered something here. Ned Garvin was the most unluckiest pitcher ever. He debuted and played for the Phillies. The Phillies have won exactly ONE title in their long history.

oh no...

i was trying to offer the other perspective given that this team doesn't exactly have things solved at the plate. i'm of the belief that worrying about soria being a starter is down the list somewhere.

Submitted by AxDxMx on September 27, 2008 - 3:53pm.

While they need help offensively, I think the problem has been solved as Gload and Pena were the problem. We could use more from Buck, but these are young guys for the most part getting better. Butler is up around .275 right now after being down around .250. They are improving.

And I was making the point that you are overly worried since your scenario happened once in MLB history.

Submitted by bobtelos on September 26, 2008 - 9:55pm.

If Dayton Moore keeps opting to acquire and play "his guys" -- Jose Guillen, TPJ, Ross Gload, Joey Gathright -- rather than the previous regimes' -- Alex Gordon, Billy Butler, Mike Aviles, Kila Monster -- the Royals may indeed have trouble scoring a run a game.

Hope this is just a bump in the road...

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