As the Guillen turns

A few weeks ago, Jose Guillen called over all the reporters in the clubhouse.

He had something to say, but before he started, a member of the Royals' media relations staff asked Guillen to be honest, to speak his mind, but, please, just keep it clean.

"(Expletive) that," Guillen said. "I'll say whatever the (expletive) I want to say."

This was how the expletive-the-fans rant started. Guillen didn't mean it the way it came out, he got defensive with all the cameras and microphones, it felt like he was putting on a bit of a show, and there may have been some leading questions in there, too.

But Guillen never backed down from it. Later, with the cameras and mics gone, he explained himself a little better, admitted that, yes, he does care about the fans (probably a little too much if you want to know the truth), and that it hurts to get booed.

And he put his name on all of it.

No cries of quotes being taken out of context, none of that.

That's Guillen's pattern, his M.O., his style, and it's why I'm skeptical of the ESPN Deportes report that he wants out of Kansas City.

Especially because Guillen puts his name on his denials.

"I don't want out of Kansas City," he told Dutton. "That's not true. I don't have a problem with Trey. That didn't come from me. If you hear it from me, then you know it's a fact -- but it didn't come from me."

One of the things that's consistently caused Guillen PR problems is that he has no filter. He says what he feels.

Nothing he's said, from the babies rant, to the fans rant -- none of it -- is anything other players in his situation would think. The different is, they wouldn't say it, at least not to reporters.

Guillen says those things, and it's caused him some trouble, but both professionally and personally, I love the fact that he's willing to say what's on his mind.

Now, I do believe there have been some issues between Guillen and Hillman. But nothing they can't work through, or haven't already.

It's hard to know exactly where these things come from, but it's easy to imagine a scenario where Guillen said something in frustration to a friend, who made his/her own assumptions, and said something to this reporter, who has a long-standing relationship with Guillen.

We know it hasn't been all laughs and hugs with Guillen in Kansas City. That's been well-documented.

When he and his wife picked out a house near the Plaza, they were about to write the deposit check when their car (and Guillen's wife's purse inside it) were stolen.

Since then, things have usually been a bit better, but he's still been booed at home, got off to a terrible start, called lazy, fat, a prima donna, and lost way more games than he'd like.

He's been hurt, tried to play through it, and listened to people question just how bad he's hurt in the first place.

I can see where he'd be pissed, where he'd have thoughts of playing somewhere else. But to use this back-channel, anonymous source route to tell people he wants out?

And then to deny it when his history is putting his name on what he says? I just don't see it.

The funny thing about the latest controversy around Guillen is that it's apparently none of his doing. There will probably be some around KC who blame him for this. That's to be expected, but if you believe Guillen's words or his long track record, it's unfair.

He deserved the criticism for his slow start, because he makes the most money and especially because he showed up to camp overweight. He deserved the criticism for the "eff the fans" rant, though he quickly apologized for that one. He's even fair game for the babies rant, though I'm sticking with the opinion that the Royals need the occasional butt-kicking like that.

But for a friend or relative to pop off anonymously to a reporter like that? Or worse, that the message was stretched? That's not Guillen's fault.

All this could be wrong, of course. My assumptions and gut feeling and looking at the guy's track record could be the opposite of the truth.

Maybe Guillen really does want out. Maybe he wants to play for a contender, doesn't see the Royals making the progress he expected, and regrets signing a three-year deal in Kansas City.

Maybe all of that has him wanting a trade, maybe he'd give up half his salary to make it happen (though the union would never allow something like that), and floated this story knowing he'd deny it when asked.

But if that's what's happening here, it's a significant change from the way Guillen's operated since joining the Royals and before.

Submitted by Sam Mellinger on July 30, 2008 - 5:53am.
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Submitted by TheDudeAbides on July 30, 2008 - 4:01pm.

Here's the thing I don't understand when fans are defending Guillen's antisocial and unprofessional behavior. Guillen is a really bad baseball player. He'd be a bad value at $4 million a year, and he's a horrific value at $12 million a year.

For 2008, Jose Guillen has -7.1 batting runs, and -0.7 batting wins. These numbers are normed to the major league average, so his negative numbers mean he's below average.

A number of posters have argued that Royals fans are whiners and that as soon as the Royals get a "winner" in town, they cry because the guy needs to drop F-bombs to show he cares. Okay, let's look at where this "winner" ranks on the Royals this year in his batting contributions.

David DeJesus 7.6 (btruns) 0.7 (btwins)
Mike Aviles 5.9, 0.6
Mark Grudzielanek -0.8, -0.1
Alex Gordon -1.0, -0.1
John Buck -3.2, -0.3
Miguel Olivo -4.4, -0.4
Billy Butler -5.9, -0.6
Esteban German -5.9, -0.6
Jose Guillen -7.1, -0.7
Mark Teahen -8.5, -0.8

That's right. The "winner" has worse numbers than the catchers. Worse numbers than Esteban German. Worse numbers than Billy Butler who was so bad he was demoted. And barely better numbers than Mark Teahen who has been so bad most fans now want him to be cut.

It's time people stop making excuses for Jose Guillen and realize that he is, in Rany's words, "A Swirling Vortex of Suck". Oh, maybe his numbers are just suffering from injury. Okay, so his career numbers probably show what a great investment he is.

Whoops. Jose Guillen has a career line of -12.4 batting runs and -1.2 batting wins. That means even before Jose Guillen came to the Royals and had a gawd-awful season, he was A BELOW AVERAGE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER. That's right, the Royals signed a guy to a $36 million dollar contract who's not only a jerk, he's a lousy baseball player.

Well, maybe the "league average" is pulled up so much by players like Manny Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez, that "average" really represents a pretty high level of play. Okay, who would be a good Royal to check on their career stats. Somebody who pretty much screams out average if somewhat underwhelming. Somebody who, until this year, was something of a minor disappointment. How about David DeJesus.

David DeJesus's career numbers are 15.6 batting runs, 1.5 batting wins. Yes, David DeJesus is a little bit more above average than Jose Guillen is below average.

Maybe if DeJesus wants to be taken seriously as a "winner" he should start acting as unprofessionally as Jose Guillen.

As baseball fans and Royals fans, we can blame Jose Guillen for all the nonsense he's pulled this year, and we can also be very skeptical about his well-documented belligerence at ALMOST EVERY OTHER PLACE HE'S PLAYED. We can be skeptical of the few good stats he's had since there is well-documented evidence of his use of performance-enhancing drugs.

As Royals fans, we don't need to make any more excuses for Jose Guillen, and we don't need to make any more excuses for Dayton Moore's positional player acquisitions.

By the way, the batting runs/batting wins numbers for three other Moore acquisitions who've somehow seen a lot of plate appearances are:
Ross Gload -10.7, -1.0
Joey Gathright -17.1, -1.7
Tony Pena Jr. -27.4, -2.7

If you like Jose Guillen's behavior, fine. But don't try to conflate being an absolute punk with being a "winner". It demeans the idea of actually being a winner, and it demeans the idea of being a fan.

Submitted by jtuck123 on July 31, 2008 - 7:38am.

I love stats. I really love strange stats. But I don't really see the point in batting runs and batting wins. I'm pretty sure that Guillen has had more than -.7 game winning hits. Maybe that's not what the stat measures, point being Guillen has made a difference on this team. Maybe you think it's a bad difference. I would have to say that any player who comes in to Kansas City and, in less than half a season, puts up more RBI than the Royals team leader of last season is making a difference on this team.

"We can be skeptical of the few good stats he's had since there is well-documented evidence of his use of performance-enhancing drugs."
- Take last years stats and compare them to this years stats so far...I just did some math and if he plays like he's been playing the past 109 games, he will have 21 HR and 111 RBI...I'd say that may be a step up from 24 HR and 99 RBI last season...When was the last time we had a 20+ HR and 100+ RBI guy?? Sweeney? Beltran? Damon?

Face it man, you may have stats that show Guillen as the worst player on the Royals roster barring Mark Teahen, but I have some better stats that you might want to look at...Like maybe 43% of your hits being extra base hits...I've heard of this other cool stat that's so much more cool than batting runs or batting wins, it's called Runs Batted In...They take the number of runs that you've driven in every game and you add them together for an entire season...crazy, right? It almost seems like you're looking too hard to find ways to get Jose Guillen to look bad on the field. I got a hint for you, STOP TRYING!

JT

Submitted by brenth on July 31, 2008 - 8:51am.

Of the 12 players who have the most plate appearances for the Royals this year, only 1 player on the team is more likely to make an out than Guillen when he comes to the plate (pretty easy to guess who that player is, but the hint is he ostensibly is a SS but he appears to be a better pitcher than SS).

Now, since the worst thing one can do at the plate is make an out, the fact that he is 11th out of 12 on the team in not making an out isn't very good.

Here's the raw data:

Player Outs PA/out
Guillen 310 1.34
Gordon 307 1.48
Teahan 287 1.43
DeJesus 266 1.49
Grudz 243 1.47
Gload 223 1.37
Butler 223 1.37
Buck 209 1.39
Gathright 200 1.38
Pena 165 1.18
Olivo 163 1.36
Aviles 142 1.45

He is going to have to have a lot of power to make up for that.

As for the comment that he is the only "feared" hitter in the lineup and he doesn't have much protection, if he is so "feared", why does he only have 11 walks this year. I don't see too many pitchers pitching around him.

Submitted by Josh Ratliff on July 31, 2008 - 7:47am.

14 dropped/missed/circled/stared-at-each-other-and-said-you-got-it/confused/fumbled pop-ups so far this season. Can we not catch a freakin' pop-up? I'd say it has costs us 5 games so far and who knows what is ahead if we can't start communicating. Aviles, Gordon, Gload, Grud included, and the outfielders got to get this right. Those are fundamental fielding errors causing losses. Arrgghhh!
That said, Can't wait to see Griffey this weekend at the K!

Submitted by jtwibell on July 31, 2008 - 9:06am.

I love your screen name...the Lebowski is a classic. However, I couldn't disagree more with you.

The problem is that you can make stats look good or bad for just about any situation (other than tony pena's avg...there is no bs'ing that one)

Who has been hitting in front of and behind guillen all season??? Gordon? The guy strikes out all the time -- although the 5 walks today was very encouraging to see. Teahen?? Can't hit anything these days. I don't care what anyone says, DeJesus is not a 3 hole hitter. A very nice player indeed, but would be hitting 2nd or 6th in every other lineup in the Majors. And behind him? Grud?? I love Grud, but he offers no protection to Guillen. And only until the last week and half has Butler done anything worthwhile.

And add in the fact that he is playing with multiple injuries -- all of which are hindering his performance, make his performance all the more impressive.

I hold the Royals to a high standard -- one that is probably too high for their current talent level, which is unfair to them. However, I do think that Guillen has actually been a wake up call for the other players on the team -- WE CAN'T ACCEPT LOSING ANYMORE.

Does he pop off and run his mouth from time to time? Does the media bait him into saying things he later rescinds? Should he be smarter about it? Yes to all the above. At the same time, hasn't he backed it up?? I think anyone who says he hasn't is lying. He plays almost everyday -- hell he got the heave-ho from LA because he got yanked from a game and got into a fight with Scoiscia. Tough to argue with a guy who has that kind of passion for the game.

You also can't make up for the cannon of an arm he has in the outfield. How many assists has he had that have single-handedly won games for the Royals this year? I would say atleast 2 or 3.

He isn't perfect -- but right now, who on the Royals is??

Submitted by lakewoodroyal on July 30, 2008 - 10:46pm.

You have to have guys to trade guys. You have to trade guys to get more guys. You have to have guys that are tradeable to have a winning team.

Not everything is done at the plate. Before we crown DeJesus a Royals Hof'er for the increased plate numbers this year, lets not forget other numbers that matter for a guy who bats at the top of the order and plays outfield: Stolen Bases. Outfield Assists.

Your points on definitely taken on Guillen's numbers, but there is also a financial number that needs to be put on a guys arm when it matters from the outfield.

No question the Royals overpaid. The Royals also weren't the only team bidding on Guillen at more than 10MM per. The Royals don't have much of track record other than being penny pinchers in the FA market. There was no secret that DM did this signing to signal that the Royals are willing to be players in the FA market. I'd much rather have Guillen than what the Dodgers ended up with.

Submitted by SconieRoyal on July 30, 2008 - 4:59pm.

but I believe he wants to win, which I think is what I was saying.

So if Gathright and German were playing everyday instead of Guillen we would be better? I seriously doubt it.

Guillen has approx. hit .289/.348/.479 with 24.7 homeruns and 93 RBI's in his last 3 full seasons. That is not a "lousy" player. In fact, when's the last Royal to have a season that good?

I guess i will have to repeat myself, Guillen is getting paid to hit in the middle of the lineup and drive in runs and give this offense some semblance of "pop", which is exactly what he's done, through multiple injuries. I have no problem with his contract, and i don't think your paying him one penny of that $36 million, Mr. Glass is, and i hope he continues to spend the money on players like Guillen.

Submitted by dproyls on July 30, 2008 - 12:37pm.

The attitude that Jose Guillen has is something that has been missing in Kansas City since the glory years of the late 70's and early 80's. The confident attitude along with the talent to back it up. That is the reason Mr. Moore brought him in here. We as Royals fans are so used to the status quo that we get upset, as shown in some responses here, if someone comes in with a "I don't want to lose" attitude and voices that through the media. I hope they go for more players with that attitude and help remind us as die hard Royals fans that you need some of that to be successful which I thought is what we all wanted. We just need to stop being babies and whiners and just support the Royals and the people who make those decisions that mold the team into what we all want it to become; A WINNER again!! Keep that fiery attitude Jose, don't change a thing. That is what this team and organization needs!

Submitted by lakewoodroyal on July 30, 2008 - 2:06pm.

Great post.
I agree with just about everyone on here- JM, jtuck, sconie, etc. I want winning baseball in KC. Period. I am a big fan of Guillen and guys like him. Cuss all you want. (Anyone remember Will Clark?) Just back it up with your play. And Guillen has done that. KC needs more players like him in the worst way. That being said - I am all for whatever it takes to get this job done. If trading the most productive player on the squad because of a PR nightmare helps, then I'm all in.

There are so many moving parts to guys like Jose Guillen. If you follow baseball, you learn that dealing with guys like him is easier when you see the intangibles. Does anyone notice when Guillen is the first guy to meet David DeJesus at the plate during his walk-off before the All-Star break? Does anyone give a nugget of support to the ONLY player in either dugout who picks up a towel and holds it to the umps head when he's been gashed by a broken bat? Did anyone care about a leader who is obviously very vocal, but also understands the tradition when a rookie middle-infielder has a huge night and gets a shaving cream pie during a TV interview curteousy of Guillen and the veterans? That doesn't seem like a guy who is so upset he wants out in the worst way.

And I'm getting a little tired of the constant badgering of questions by the media to this guy. We all know they want a soundbyte and the more f-bombs, the better. How come nobody runs interviews on him when the Royals win and he goes 2-4 with 3 RBIs? Why is it when Bannister serves up a pile of meatballs in a game and then offers up some lame excuse about how he only through one and half bad pitches that any of those credential to the clubhouse don't pester him the same way they did about Jose and his "jog" to first base? Does Gordon ever get asked, "Hey Alex. Do you feel like you are living up to any of the expectations of a can't miss prospect? I mean, you did sign a pretty nice bonus and all." I have yet to hear anyone lob something other than softballs at Billy Butler.

You can tell Dayton Moore is frustrated. Not necessarily at Guillen, but at this whole situation in general. The city cries they want a winner, but they only want a winner a certain way. They want Joe Montana and Larry Johnson in the same uniform. 9 George Bretts in the lineup everynight.

I would understand if they traded Guillen at this point. The fairweather fans made up their mind on him when he signed the contract. I just want a freaking winner. I was so excited when Glass finally paid for a player but its so deflating to hear the boos.

Submitted by MB on July 31, 2008 - 5:43am.

I've noticed how tired Trey looks lately. He can't really afford to DL Guillen if he's trying to win and Jose would probably fight that anyway. Let's just chalk Guillen up to the curse of Tony Muser, take our medicine (that's long overdue) and watch the game.

Submitted by A Dude Being A Dude on July 30, 2008 - 12:16pm.

I wish I could sit down with Guillen and just ask him, "What the heck are you doing?" He's getting booed in Kansas City because he just won't shut up. What does he think all of these rants are going to get him? Less boos? When he tells the fans to "eff off" what does he think is going to happen? Of course the fans are going to be upset even though he did apologize. Guillen said, "The fans don't know what’s going on". Fact is, we don't want to know everything that goes on in his head. The best thing for him to do is to head to the DL and get himself healthy. The Royals fans will start to realize how important his bat is and then they will want him back. If he would just shut up and take the boos, we wouldn’t be having this problem. Because I can promise you that Royals fans (including myself) fell in love with Guillen when he was on that hot streak. Royal’s fans are happy when we have a legit power bat so, word of advice to you Mr. Guillen: Shut up and act like a professional. It seems to me that you're the baby in this club house.

Submitted by Boy Genius on July 30, 2008 - 11:30am.

It's been said before, by others and myself, that Guillen could do the same thing for today's Royals that Hal McRae did for the 70s Royals. I remember the We're-Just-Happy-to-Have-a-Major-League-Team Royals of the early 70s. McRae did more to end that self-perception than Whitey Herzog did. The difference is that today Guillen has a quote-hungry media at his disposal. Plenty of stuff athletes used to say in private is now public. It's even become acceptable for coaches and managers to call out players in the media. I hope Guillen stays, pouts, celebrates, bitches, high-fives, and hits. The Royals and their players and fans have been just happy to be in the majors for about 20 years now. I'm as sick of it as Guillen.

Submitted by HouseThatTeahenBuilt on July 30, 2008 - 11:05am.

Jose Guillen hasn't even been very good this year. I hated the signing when it happened and I hate it now.

Submitted by jtuck123 on July 30, 2008 - 11:40am.

I might be completely wrong about this, which happens quite a bit, but if you're true to your name, then Mark Teahen should have been gone quite a while ago...Isn't it funny how we can love the player who, quite frankly, stinks (Teahen), but we hate the player who does well (Guillen)....(I'm gonna reference SconieRoyal here for the idea...thanks dude). No offence, but come on, protesting a 25 HR 99 RBI a year guy? Sounds kinda strange for a Royals fan. But you keep on hating Jose while the rest of the sane world enjoys a few more Royals wins...
JT

Submitted by lakewoodroyal on July 30, 2008 - 2:12pm.

Thankyoujesusholyharrygoodgravy. Maybe its because Guillen hasn't had a free t-shirt night?

Submitted by jtuck123 on July 31, 2008 - 7:40am.

I'm gonna have a free Jose Guillen T-Shirt night at my house!! That's what he needs for the fans of Kansas City to like him....Sad, but is some sort of twisted way, it's probably true...
JT

Submitted by IWasTherein85 on July 30, 2008 - 10:04am.

Why don't the Royals simply put Guillen on the DL until his injuries are healed? A healthy Guillen tearing up the league over the last 6 or 7 weeks of the season would go far to make everyone forget his public relations troubles. I would rather see Hillman exit this team then him. Hillman's constant misjudgements about putting his best players on the field (remember how he tried to bury Aviles on the bench when he first came up?) are making me wonder about whether he's really capable of being a good manager.

Submitted by jtuck123 on July 30, 2008 - 11:27am.

I agree with you and JMGesling below you...Guillen would be better served on the DL and Mitch Maier with a little extra time in center...I don't want to be rude, but I don't think Trey Hillman's job is as easy as we want to think it is...Trey Hillman is doing his best to make this team better and the only problem he's having is mediocre players that aren't playing well...Teahen, Gathright, Gobble, etc...Then he has injury laden Guillen and Callaspo...I think he has no chance but to put people on the field that he might think aren't the best choices because he hasn't got any other options. I don't think he's a bad coach or un-"capable of being a good manager", I just think he's got nothing to work with...Anybody could be a good manager if they had a line-up of All-Stars. So give Hillman a break, you can only make a sack of _ _ _ _ look so good...

PS. Blanks = crap...:)
JT

Submitted by JMGesling on July 30, 2008 - 8:16am.

Unfortunately, this has become a vicious cycle. Guillen plays hurt, looks like he isn't hustling. Fans boo and heckle, he gets pissed, says his feelings, and more boos. I don't blame either side...since Guillen is trying his best and Royals fans want winners. Here's my solution.

Send Jose to a specialist to look at his legs. Send him to the 15 day DL to fully heal his leg. That eliminates his "lack of hustle" and he can better play, making the fans boo less.

In an ideal world, this would happen and work perfectly. I will admit though, I still cheer Jimmy Gobble...so that says something about my loyalty to Royals players.

Someone needs to step in and make a decision, instead of throwing an injured Jose Guillen out in the field. Sure he produces...and I know that's hard to eliminate, but come on.

Submitted by SconieRoyal on July 30, 2008 - 7:55am.

I want more Jose Guillen's, not less. We want to coddle Billy Butler even though it's his inability to play a position that's forcing Guillen to play the outfield even though he looks like he's 60 years old right now. (Or else it’s Trey’s undeniable love for all things Ross Gload)

I hate players that want to win. And I hate players that get paid to do something (like hit in the middle of the order and drive in runs) and then do it. I hate players that are going to drive in more runs and have more home runs than anybody in the organization has had in three years.

Please trade him anyways, even if he didn't request it.

Submitted by bangoskank on July 30, 2008 - 7:28am.

If Guillen wanted to be traded so badly he would have just come right out and told the media. It's not like he has held anything back in the past, why would he start now?

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